Debate/Discussion Topic

All other discussions.

Moderator: Kenya

Post Reply
User avatar
Mook
Adult Mouse
Posts: 807
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:13 pm
Location: Walking through a store randomly hitting people on the head with an empty plastic water bottle,fun!
Contact:

Re: Debate/Discussion Topic

Post by Mook »

*sigh* It seems i cannot keep up in this topic =/ just know i'll be lurking, watching mostly...
Image
No Steps Backward.

Size 95 - 84857d
SouthernStar
Adult Rabbit
Posts: 3900
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:01 am

Re: Debate/Discussion Topic

Post by SouthernStar »

Quagga wrote:To me, my beliefs are truth. As such, it does not feel like a guess. To those who may not agree with my beliefs, I may be guessing, but to myself, I am not. To you, there may be no answer. To others, it really feels like they have the answer.

They have to be so wonderfully fit to their environment, otherwise, they would not survive. Or... they would be found elsewhere. :P Oh, I still have a question somewhat relative to it... Say you believe in evolution. I guess I don't have to limit this to just the belief of evolution, though... Anyways. Animals evolve, and if I'm correct, the stronger, most fit, and especially so - the most suitable creatures survive for the next generations. If this is so, why, then, support saving endangered species? Wouldn't they be the weaker creatures, since they're getting wiped out? Why leave a weak species live when they should, eventually again, risk being wiped out due to the stronger, more fit animals overpowering them? They would be a sick species, unfit to any longer live.

-Now, excuses can include, "Oh, the ecosystem will become unbalanced!" However, the ecosystem has lost numerous creatures in the past. Why should it die out now, because you lose an already tiny and dying population (Say, maybe... 1000, or 500, left) of animals? The population should be small enough by then to hardly have a significant affect on it anymore, because the chances of encountering that animal has decreased greatly. How the other animals survive and react to this disappearance should be notable by that time. --Okay, maybe I can understand saving a sudden, rapidly decreasing population of 10,000 to 1,000... But otherwise... (I'm just pondering, I don't have any feelings against - or towards - saving endangered animals. Thoughts just come to mind, at times...)

I believe in a smaller version of evolution, like I mentioned before - if you'd even call it that. I still prefer the word "adaptation" over "evolution," though... Or, better yet, general genetics.

Edit:
I don't think this'll be offensive. Don't think it's even very much relative to religion. Although if it was a bit too much, then sorry. Don't think it was, though... Just a thought that came to mind.
I'd help save the animals because I think they look cool.


Edit: I like polar bears.
For science!
User avatar
Alexander
Adult Rabbit
Posts: 3898
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:37 pm
Location: Srsly.

Re: Debate/Discussion Topic

Post by Alexander »

Quagga wrote:To me, my beliefs are truth. As such, it does not feel like a guess. To those who may not agree with my beliefs, I may be guessing, but to myself, I am not. To you, there may be no answer. To others, it really feels like they have the answer.

They have to be so wonderfully fit to their environment, otherwise, they would not survive. Or... they would be found elsewhere. :P Oh, I still have a question somewhat relative to it... Say you believe in evolution. I guess I don't have to limit this to just the belief of evolution, though... Anyways. Animals evolve, and if I'm correct, the stronger, most fit, and especially so - the most suitable creatures survive for the next generations. If this is so, why, then, support saving endangered species? Wouldn't they be the weaker creatures, since they're getting wiped out? Why leave a weak species live when they should, eventually again, risk being wiped out due to the stronger, more fit animals overpowering them? They would be a sick species, unfit to any longer live.

-Now, excuses can include, "Oh, the ecosystem will become unbalanced!" However, the ecosystem has lost numerous creatures in the past. Why should it die out now, because you lose an already tiny and dying population (Say, maybe... 1000, or 500, left) of animals? The population should be small enough by then to hardly have a significant affect on it anymore, because the chances of encountering that animal has decreased greatly. How the other animals survive and react to this disappearance should be notable by that time. --Okay, maybe I can understand saving a sudden, rapidly decreasing population of 10,000 to 1,000... But otherwise... (I'm just pondering, I don't have any feelings against - or towards - saving endangered animals. Thoughts just come to mind, at times...)

I believe in a smaller version of evolution, like I mentioned before - if you'd even call it that. I still prefer the word "adaptation" over "evolution," though... Or, better yet, general genetics.

Edit:
I don't think this'll be offensive. Don't think it's even very much relative to religion. Although if it was a bit too much, then sorry. Don't think it was, though... Just a thought that came to mind.

I see where you're going with supporting the dying species issue, however I don't think they are relating it with evolution. They are saving them because as far as I can tell either all of them or most of them are because we took over their lands, I guess you could say. An example would be wolves. They have been shot by farmers due to them eating their cattle and such. Over time the wolves either retreat to another habitat (Ex. Canada) or their population again suffers. I think that the biggest reason we help endangered species is because we hurt their population, not that we want to help weak animals stay alive..
and I guess you could say that since we have taken over their habitat that they are now weak and natural selection takes over, but in reality it depends on the people and what they think. It's either we took over their habitat and letting natural selection take place, or that we harmed their habitat and we are now responsible for their depleting population.

That's the excuse I can make up for endangered species since I too think it would be a bit weird to consider it in evolution terms. xP
Image
Got #1 high score for goats! Woohoo!
User avatar
Kenya
Global Moderator
Posts: 2704
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:55 pm
Location: South Africa

Re: Debate/Discussion Topic

Post by Kenya »

Ack, I posted something this morning but it didn't post. ._.
Anywhoo...

So, I ask if you believe in adaptation? I'm sure you do, since if you didn't, well, you'd most likely not be able to do much. We all must adapt to change, it can be something minor as a new type of juice in our lunch, or something major such as a new car. But we still adapt, yes?
Now, consider the Iphone. It started off with a 3G and is now at the 4S. The phone is not the same thing with a different name, it has new, evolved features. The phone has been adapted so it can evolve into what it is now.
It's not just technology that advances. Like my teacher says, we can go on and make totally new things, BUT we must hold onto what was made in the past. All ideas come from somewhere. It's like atoms; they're just recycled.

As well, about the animals.
They are dying out NOT because of what evolution game them (note that evolution does not happen over the span of a generation, it takes millions or even billions of years, chances are if something were to evolve you would not be able to live long enough to see it), instead the animals are dying out/going extinct/becoming endangered due to humans. If we were not on earth, things would be much different and animals would not go extinct/be on the endangered list (though, the dinosaurs/ice age animals are a different story. If needed, I can elaborate on them). Basically, it's due to humans getting in the way.
WEO Moderator since August 31st, 2010

If you need assistance please PM me.
animalguy888
Adult Gecko
Posts: 1546
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:42 am
Location: In the sky hunting for a hybrid between superman and bigfoot in an alternate universe
Contact:

Re: Debate/Discussion Topic

Post by animalguy888 »

maury island UfO incedent.


Background
The incident took place shortly after June 21, 1947. On that date, seaman Harold A. Dahl, out scavenging for drifting logs, claimed to have seen six UFOs near Maury Island (which is now a peninsula of Vashon Island, in Puget Sound, near Tacoma, Washington, United States; Maury Island is located directly across a narrow section of Puget Sound from Sea-Tac International Airport and Boeing Field). Dahl, his son Charles, an unnamed hand and Dahl's dog were on the boat. Dahl reported seeing four, five or six (the initial FBI report says four or five) "doughnut-shaped objects" flying in formation over the area where his boat was. He said he could see blue sky through the holes in the center of the discs, and that there appeared to be port holes lining the inside of the ring. One of the craft appeared to be malfunctioning, Dahl reported, and another craft edged up to it, then retreated. At this point the troubled craft began ejecting objects through the inner port holes. Slag-like material began hitting the boat and damaged the windshield, the wheel house and a light fixture, and killed his dog on the deck. He said his son was also slightly injured by falling debris. Dahl claimed to have taken a number of photographs of the UFOs, and recovered some type of slag ejected from the craft that malfunctioned. Dahl also recovered samples of sheaves of lightweight white sheets of metal that fluttered like "newspapers" out from the inner ring of the troubled UFO to the ground.

The next morning, Dahl reported a man arrived at his home and invited him to breakfast at a nearby diner; Dahl accepted the invitation. He described the man as wearing a black suit and driving a new 1947 Buick; Dahl assumed he was a military or government representative. Dahl claimed the man told him details of the UFO sighting while they ate, though Dahl had not related his account publicly. The man also allegedly gave Dahl a non-specific warning which Dahl took as a threat that his family might be harmed if he related details of the sighting.

Some confusion and debate over Dahl's statements have occurred. Dahl would later claim the UFO sighting was a hoax, but has also claimed the sighting was accurate, but he had claimed it was a hoax to avoid bringing harm to his family.

[edit] InvestigationIn spite of the threat, Dahl had reported the incident to his employee at his sawmill operation, Fred Crisman, who had long claimed to have experience with unusual phenomena (and who was later alleged to be linked to the John F. Kennedy assassination)[1] and who also was the owner, or co-owner, of the boat used by Dahl. Crisman and Dahl also had a joint-venture to retrieve drifting logs from Puget Sound as a source of raw lumber. Crisman sailed to the island the following day and said he spotted a craft briefly, but it went behind a cloud. He gathered more of the slag which he found littering the beach area. He then sent a sample to Chicago with a request it be tested. According to the FBI report, Crisman either sent it to Ray Palmer, science fiction writer and editor of Amazing Science Fiction, or sent it to a friend at the University of Chicago who failed to identify the material and then sent it on to Ray Palmer. While the "rock formation" was being passed around in Chicago, the famous sighting by Kenneth Arnold took place at Mount Rainier in Washington state. Palmer contacted Arnold and asked him to investigate the incident for the story Arnold was writing for one of Palmer's publications (the FBI report states Palmer was the editor of the magazines Venture and Fantacy [sic, given as "Fantasy" elsewhere in the report] at this time, although both Venture Science Fiction Magazine and The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction first appeared long after the incident. Palmer inaugurated the first issue of Fate magazine in January, 1948 with a cover featuring flying disks and the article he paid Kenneth Arnold to write [2]).

Arnold flew from Boise, Idaho, to Tacoma and met with Crisman, Dahl and at least three military intelligence officers at the Winthrop Hotel there. During the meetings over several days, an unknown person (the FBI agent who wrote up the main report on the incident believed Crisman was the most likely suspect) began leaking details of the UFO sighting at Maury Island, the meeting in the hotel room and details of the conversation there to reporters at the Tacoma Times and at United Press, the latter reporter also working for Tacoma News Tribune. The anonymous caller also contacted the Seattle Post-Intelligencer and the Boise Statesman.

The two United States Army Air Corps investigating officers who arrived at Arnold's request, Captain William L. Davidson and Lietuenant Frank M. Brown of Army A-2 Intelligence, decided to fly back to Hamilton Field the same day they arrived in Tacoma after interviewing Crisman in the hotel room. Dahl had decided to leave, citing possible danger to himself if the story got out, presumably because of the warning he received from the man in black previously. The two intelligence officers said they had to return to Hamilton Field in California quickly because the next day was Air Force Day, when the Air Force officially became a new service branch distinct from the Navy, Marines and Army. As the investigators were preparing to leave, Crisman produced samples of the "rock formation" from his automobile and gave it to the investigators to take back to California.[3] The plane carrying the two investigators and the slag crashed near Kelso, Washington, shortly after leaving Tacoma, killing both men.[3] In April 2007 it was reported that the crash site had been rediscovered and some material recovered, although the initial military investigation did recover exhibits and remove the bodies.[4][5] The FBI report notes that investigators from McChord Field near Tacoma had investigated the wreckage and were convinced there was no sabotage involved. The FBI report further mentions that two other people on board the airplane survived by parachuting from the airplane after it lost its left wing and the tail section due to a fire in the left engine. One of the survivors was named as a member of the flight crew and the other was referred to as "a hitch-hiker." The Seattle Post-Intelligencer identified them as Sergeant Elmer L. Taft and Technical Sergeant Woodrow D. Matthews. Initially the Air Force denied the men had been carrying a secret cargo, but in later years admitted that they had been officially investigating the Dahl report.

Crisman alerted Arnold of the crash early the next twenty mornings and Dahl and Crisman returned to the hotel to discuss the situation with Arnold. Arnold had invited another person, accidentally identified in the FOI copy of the FBI report as a Mr. Smith of Seattle (probably Captain E. H. Smith (elsewhere E. J. Smith) of United Airlines, identified in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer article under External links below), to Tacoma to attend the UFO conference, and this informant related to the FBI field agent that a Mr. Lantz (elsewhere identified as Paul Lance) of the Tacoma Times contacted Arnold at the hotel and informed him of the leaks, including information that the Army intelligence officers had been shot down in the B-25 airplane over Kelso by 20 mm cannon, and that a Marine airplane whose wreck that had allegedly been found earlier at Mt. Rainier had also been shot down with the same weapon. The anonymous caller claimed knowledge of on-going investigations by military intelligence. He was not identified but claimed to be a switchboard operator. Mr. Smith informed the FBI the switchboard operator at the Winthrop Hotel in Tacoma was not a male. The anonymous caller also said he was not interested in providing a scoop to any certain media outlet but wanted the news "to get back to New Jersey."

Asked to produce the photographs he had made of the UFOs over Maury Island, Dahl and the group left the hotel and went to Dahl's automobile parked outside. Dahl then claimed the photographs had disappeared from his glove compartment. Initially he had said the photographs didn't turn out and were marred by white spots that appeared on them. He didn't change his story and the group knew the photographs were of poor quality. Later UFOlogists revisited the issue of the photographs with Crisman, prompting the claim some copies had survived, but UFOlogists were unable to acquire this piece of evidence.

The ad hoc group in Tacoma in 1947 also decided to sail to Maury Island. This plan failed when the boat failed to start. Asked where the UFO had damaged the boats, Crisman pointed to the windshield, the klaaxon and a light. Smith told the FBI there were signs of recent repair to these parts.

Alarmed by the deaths, Dahl disappeared, although the FBI report mentions his son, allegedly injured by the slag from the malfunctioning UFO, had run away from home to Montana for some reason. The anonymous caller informed the press that one of the two witnesses would shortly be sent to Alaska. Crisman, a WWII veteran, was recalled to service hastily and sent to Alaska (A UFO was spotted northwest of Bethel, Alaska on August 4 by Captain Jack Peck and copilot Vince Daly from a Douglas DC-3 they operated for Al Jones flying service and was reported to the headquarters of the Fourth Air Force in Hamilton, California and the Air Defense Command commander at Mitchell Field in New York.[6]), then posted to Greenland (Thule Air Force Base figures in Milton William Cooper's "Behold a Pale Horse" as a Majestic 12/Operation Majority control terminus). Arnold found himself unable to complete the story for Palmer. Samples of the slag provided to Arnold and Palmer also allegedly went missing. Arnold was allegedly advised by Ted Morello of the United Press: "You're involved in something that is beyond our power here to find out anything about... Get out of this town until whatever it is blows over.".[7]

Arnold decided to fly home. He stopped for fuel in Pendleton, Oregon, and shortly after taking off again, his engine froze in mid-air. He managed to land the plane safely despite the emergency.

Paul Lance of the Tacoma Times died within two weeks of undetermined causes.[8] United Press stringer Ted Morello moved to New York and until his death due to a stroke on September 15, 2007, at the age of 88, was a well-respected newspaper correspondent to the United Nations.

Some believe that the famous case of another allegedly disabled UFO, the Roswell UFO incident, took place about 12 days after Dahl's sighting, although various dates circulate among Roswell investigators and the chronology is less certain than that for the Maury Island Incident.

The story of the mysterious crash of the B-25 and the death of the two men investigating the "disk case" who allegedly had a "top-secret cargo" or even "saucer parts" was carried by the wire services and published by newspapers locally and nationally.[citation needed]

Albert K. Bender later seized on Dahl's story, and printed it in his newsletter. In 1953, Bender claimed three men in black visited him, and warned him to stop his UFO research, which he did for a decade, closing down his International Flying Saucer Bureau. In 1963 Bender published his story, *Flying Saucers and the Three Men*, placing him beyond the pale of even the UFO research community because of his claims about men in black.

Capt. Edward J. Ruppelt, chief of Project Blue Book in the early 1950s, wrote that he was convinced that the entire sighting story was a hoax.[9] The initial FBI field report concluded the story was a hoax as well.

In the FBI report the anonymous caller mentioned an incident involving a United Airlines pilot and his co-pilot flying over Montana and coming under fire.

United Airlines pilot E. H. Smith, the likely identity of the main informant in the FBI report and a key figure in the meetings at the Winthrop Hotel in Tacoma, was named as witnessing a UFO event over Boise several weeks prior (on July 4, according to the FBI report) to the crash of the B-25 near Kelso, Washington, according to an Associated Press dispatch with the dateline of San Francisco, August 2, "2 Flyers died in Crash on 'Disc' Mission" (see Seattle Post-Intelligencer, "Is strange rock from UFO or just a piece of poppycock?", April 25, 2007, under External links below). In the FBI report on the Maury Island Incident, Mr. Smith reports he made contact with people he knew inside military intelligence during the meetings with Arnold, Dahl, Crisman and others in Tacoma. Smith reported a meeting between Arnold, him and an unnamed military intelligence figure without Dahl or Crisman present. In subsequent accounts by Arnold a Major Sanders is mentioned as present at the hotel with Crisman. Mr. Smith reported he, his contact from military intelligence and Arnold went to an unidentified Tacoma slag mill to compare the "rock formation" Dahl had collected and provided with generic slag from a smelter, and found they were very alike.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3_rZCcyL4I

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maury_Island_incident
Image
Image
Image

"There is beauty in every Creature, Stone, and Plant. To find it you Just have to look for It."


Click here if you dare!...

Image
User avatar
Alexander
Adult Rabbit
Posts: 3898
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:37 pm
Location: Srsly.

Re: Debate/Discussion Topic

Post by Alexander »

I remember that from UFO Hunters. They tried to find some evidence of any leftover debri, though I don't think they really found anything. It's been a few decades since the incident, so I doubted they'd find anything.
Right now I'm hearing about Silencers, AKA the "Men In Black". d:
Image
Got #1 high score for goats! Woohoo!
SouthernStar
Adult Rabbit
Posts: 3900
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:01 am

Re: Debate/Discussion Topic

Post by SouthernStar »

animalguy888 wrote:maury island UfO incedent.


Background
The incident took place shortly after June 21, 1947. On that date, seaman Harold A. Dahl, out scavenging for drifting logs, claimed to have seen six UFOs near Maury Island (which is now a peninsula of Vashon Island, in Puget Sound, near Tacoma, Washington, United States; Maury Island is located directly across a narrow section of Puget Sound from Sea-Tac International Airport and Boeing Field). Dahl, his son Charles, an unnamed hand and Dahl's dog were on the boat. Dahl reported seeing four, five or six (the initial FBI report says four or five) "doughnut-shaped objects" flying in formation over the area where his boat was. He said he could see blue sky through the holes in the center of the discs, and that there appeared to be port holes lining the inside of the ring. One of the craft appeared to be malfunctioning, Dahl reported, and another craft edged up to it, then retreated. At this point the troubled craft began ejecting objects through the inner port holes. Slag-like material began hitting the boat and damaged the windshield, the wheel house and a light fixture, and killed his dog on the deck. He said his son was also slightly injured by falling debris. Dahl claimed to have taken a number of photographs of the UFOs, and recovered some type of slag ejected from the craft that malfunctioned. Dahl also recovered samples of sheaves of lightweight white sheets of metal that fluttered like "newspapers" out from the inner ring of the troubled UFO to the ground.

The next morning, Dahl reported a man arrived at his home and invited him to breakfast at a nearby diner; Dahl accepted the invitation. He described the man as wearing a black suit and driving a new 1947 Buick; Dahl assumed he was a military or government representative. Dahl claimed the man told him details of the UFO sighting while they ate, though Dahl had not related his account publicly. The man also allegedly gave Dahl a non-specific warning which Dahl took as a threat that his family might be harmed if he related details of the sighting.

Some confusion and debate over Dahl's statements have occurred. Dahl would later claim the UFO sighting was a hoax, but has also claimed the sighting was accurate, but he had claimed it was a hoax to avoid bringing harm to his family.

[edit] InvestigationIn spite of the threat, Dahl had reported the incident to his employee at his sawmill operation, Fred Crisman, who had long claimed to have experience with unusual phenomena (and who was later alleged to be linked to the John F. Kennedy assassination)[1] and who also was the owner, or co-owner, of the boat used by Dahl. Crisman and Dahl also had a joint-venture to retrieve drifting logs from Puget Sound as a source of raw lumber. Crisman sailed to the island the following day and said he spotted a craft briefly, but it went behind a cloud. He gathered more of the slag which he found littering the beach area. He then sent a sample to Chicago with a request it be tested. According to the FBI report, Crisman either sent it to Ray Palmer, science fiction writer and editor of Amazing Science Fiction, or sent it to a friend at the University of Chicago who failed to identify the material and then sent it on to Ray Palmer. While the "rock formation" was being passed around in Chicago, the famous sighting by Kenneth Arnold took place at Mount Rainier in Washington state. Palmer contacted Arnold and asked him to investigate the incident for the story Arnold was writing for one of Palmer's publications (the FBI report states Palmer was the editor of the magazines Venture and Fantacy [sic, given as "Fantasy" elsewhere in the report] at this time, although both Venture Science Fiction Magazine and The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction first appeared long after the incident. Palmer inaugurated the first issue of Fate magazine in January, 1948 with a cover featuring flying disks and the article he paid Kenneth Arnold to write [2]).

Arnold flew from Boise, Idaho, to Tacoma and met with Crisman, Dahl and at least three military intelligence officers at the Winthrop Hotel there. During the meetings over several days, an unknown person (the FBI agent who wrote up the main report on the incident believed Crisman was the most likely suspect) began leaking details of the UFO sighting at Maury Island, the meeting in the hotel room and details of the conversation there to reporters at the Tacoma Times and at United Press, the latter reporter also working for Tacoma News Tribune. The anonymous caller also contacted the Seattle Post-Intelligencer and the Boise Statesman.

The two United States Army Air Corps investigating officers who arrived at Arnold's request, Captain William L. Davidson and Lietuenant Frank M. Brown of Army A-2 Intelligence, decided to fly back to Hamilton Field the same day they arrived in Tacoma after interviewing Crisman in the hotel room. Dahl had decided to leave, citing possible danger to himself if the story got out, presumably because of the warning he received from the man in black previously. The two intelligence officers said they had to return to Hamilton Field in California quickly because the next day was Air Force Day, when the Air Force officially became a new service branch distinct from the Navy, Marines and Army. As the investigators were preparing to leave, Crisman produced samples of the "rock formation" from his automobile and gave it to the investigators to take back to California.[3] The plane carrying the two investigators and the slag crashed near Kelso, Washington, shortly after leaving Tacoma, killing both men.[3] In April 2007 it was reported that the crash site had been rediscovered and some material recovered, although the initial military investigation did recover exhibits and remove the bodies.[4][5] The FBI report notes that investigators from McChord Field near Tacoma had investigated the wreckage and were convinced there was no sabotage involved. The FBI report further mentions that two other people on board the airplane survived by parachuting from the airplane after it lost its left wing and the tail section due to a fire in the left engine. One of the survivors was named as a member of the flight crew and the other was referred to as "a hitch-hiker." The Seattle Post-Intelligencer identified them as Sergeant Elmer L. Taft and Technical Sergeant Woodrow D. Matthews. Initially the Air Force denied the men had been carrying a secret cargo, but in later years admitted that they had been officially investigating the Dahl report.

Crisman alerted Arnold of the crash early the next twenty mornings and Dahl and Crisman returned to the hotel to discuss the situation with Arnold. Arnold had invited another person, accidentally identified in the FOI copy of the FBI report as a Mr. Smith of Seattle (probably Captain E. H. Smith (elsewhere E. J. Smith) of United Airlines, identified in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer article under External links below), to Tacoma to attend the UFO conference, and this informant related to the FBI field agent that a Mr. Lantz (elsewhere identified as Paul Lance) of the Tacoma Times contacted Arnold at the hotel and informed him of the leaks, including information that the Army intelligence officers had been shot down in the B-25 airplane over Kelso by 20 mm cannon, and that a Marine airplane whose wreck that had allegedly been found earlier at Mt. Rainier had also been shot down with the same weapon. The anonymous caller claimed knowledge of on-going investigations by military intelligence. He was not identified but claimed to be a switchboard operator. Mr. Smith informed the FBI the switchboard operator at the Winthrop Hotel in Tacoma was not a male. The anonymous caller also said he was not interested in providing a scoop to any certain media outlet but wanted the news "to get back to New Jersey."

Asked to produce the photographs he had made of the UFOs over Maury Island, Dahl and the group left the hotel and went to Dahl's automobile parked outside. Dahl then claimed the photographs had disappeared from his glove compartment. Initially he had said the photographs didn't turn out and were marred by white spots that appeared on them. He didn't change his story and the group knew the photographs were of poor quality. Later UFOlogists revisited the issue of the photographs with Crisman, prompting the claim some copies had survived, but UFOlogists were unable to acquire this piece of evidence.

The ad hoc group in Tacoma in 1947 also decided to sail to Maury Island. This plan failed when the boat failed to start. Asked where the UFO had damaged the boats, Crisman pointed to the windshield, the klaaxon and a light. Smith told the FBI there were signs of recent repair to these parts.

Alarmed by the deaths, Dahl disappeared, although the FBI report mentions his son, allegedly injured by the slag from the malfunctioning UFO, had run away from home to Montana for some reason. The anonymous caller informed the press that one of the two witnesses would shortly be sent to Alaska. Crisman, a WWII veteran, was recalled to service hastily and sent to Alaska (A UFO was spotted northwest of Bethel, Alaska on August 4 by Captain Jack Peck and copilot Vince Daly from a Douglas DC-3 they operated for Al Jones flying service and was reported to the headquarters of the Fourth Air Force in Hamilton, California and the Air Defense Command commander at Mitchell Field in New York.[6]), then posted to Greenland (Thule Air Force Base figures in Milton William Cooper's "Behold a Pale Horse" as a Majestic 12/Operation Majority control terminus). Arnold found himself unable to complete the story for Palmer. Samples of the slag provided to Arnold and Palmer also allegedly went missing. Arnold was allegedly advised by Ted Morello of the United Press: "You're involved in something that is beyond our power here to find out anything about... Get out of this town until whatever it is blows over.".[7]

Arnold decided to fly home. He stopped for fuel in Pendleton, Oregon, and shortly after taking off again, his engine froze in mid-air. He managed to land the plane safely despite the emergency.

Paul Lance of the Tacoma Times died within two weeks of undetermined causes.[8] United Press stringer Ted Morello moved to New York and until his death due to a stroke on September 15, 2007, at the age of 88, was a well-respected newspaper correspondent to the United Nations.

Some believe that the famous case of another allegedly disabled UFO, the Roswell UFO incident, took place about 12 days after Dahl's sighting, although various dates circulate among Roswell investigators and the chronology is less certain than that for the Maury Island Incident.

The story of the mysterious crash of the B-25 and the death of the two men investigating the "disk case" who allegedly had a "top-secret cargo" or even "saucer parts" was carried by the wire services and published by newspapers locally and nationally.[citation needed]

Albert K. Bender later seized on Dahl's story, and printed it in his newsletter. In 1953, Bender claimed three men in black visited him, and warned him to stop his UFO research, which he did for a decade, closing down his International Flying Saucer Bureau. In 1963 Bender published his story, *Flying Saucers and the Three Men*, placing him beyond the pale of even the UFO research community because of his claims about men in black.

Capt. Edward J. Ruppelt, chief of Project Blue Book in the early 1950s, wrote that he was convinced that the entire sighting story was a hoax.[9] The initial FBI field report concluded the story was a hoax as well.

In the FBI report the anonymous caller mentioned an incident involving a United Airlines pilot and his co-pilot flying over Montana and coming under fire.

United Airlines pilot E. H. Smith, the likely identity of the main informant in the FBI report and a key figure in the meetings at the Winthrop Hotel in Tacoma, was named as witnessing a UFO event over Boise several weeks prior (on July 4, according to the FBI report) to the crash of the B-25 near Kelso, Washington, according to an Associated Press dispatch with the dateline of San Francisco, August 2, "2 Flyers died in Crash on 'Disc' Mission" (see Seattle Post-Intelligencer, "Is strange rock from UFO or just a piece of poppycock?", April 25, 2007, under External links below). In the FBI report on the Maury Island Incident, Mr. Smith reports he made contact with people he knew inside military intelligence during the meetings with Arnold, Dahl, Crisman and others in Tacoma. Smith reported a meeting between Arnold, him and an unnamed military intelligence figure without Dahl or Crisman present. In subsequent accounts by Arnold a Major Sanders is mentioned as present at the hotel with Crisman. Mr. Smith reported he, his contact from military intelligence and Arnold went to an unidentified Tacoma slag mill to compare the "rock formation" Dahl had collected and provided with generic slag from a smelter, and found they were very alike.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3_rZCcyL4I

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maury_Island_incident
tl;dr

summary?
For science!
User avatar
Alexander
Adult Rabbit
Posts: 3898
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:37 pm
Location: Srsly.

Re: Debate/Discussion Topic

Post by Alexander »

Summary:
Location: Maury Island
Date: June 21 1947
A man and his 15 year old son were on a boat salvaging logs along the coast of Maury Island. At one point they saw 6 donut shaped objects appearing overhead. One of them seemed to have problems staying airborne. As the man brought his boat to shore, the troubled UFO began dropping tons of hot metal and rock. The man said that his son was burned on the arm and that their dog was killed by the dump of debri.
Image
Got #1 high score for goats! Woohoo!
Scimitar
Bluebird Chick
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:46 pm

Re: Debate/Discussion Topic

Post by Scimitar »

What about spaying/neutering your pets? (sorry if this seems like an argument and people start fighting or if it becomes inappropriate for children) I think that it shouldn't be done and instead people should find another way to keep their animals from breeding (proper containment/alternate sterilization) instead of neutering, because neutering can cause health problems (too many to list in dogs, but male cats can get urinary tract problems, and these are already common in cats, and it CAN cause obesity, the only things it can prevent are a few cancers) and it changes their behavior (sometimes you need to neuter an aggressive animal, but it can reduce confidence so it shouldn't be done to guard/herding dogs)

(The reason they become fat is because they don't ever look for a mate, although obesity can be prevented with proper exercise and diet) (My neutered male cat got a kidney stone, and he's mean and sprays, my spayed female cat actually STARTED spraying AFTER being spayed, and my other spayed female was fat and lazy)

They get mad at the person who takes them to the vet to neuter them and (unlike when you take them to the vet to get a checkup or shots) they STAY mad at you (some people might not have this problem, but my cats hate whoever took them to the vet for their spay surgery) (The reason some of my cats are spayed/neutered is because my parents spayed the females, the males were neutered when we got them)

I recommend getting you pets' tubes cut or giving them X-ray sterilization, or keeping the females inside while they're in heat. (I DON'T recommend birth control pills/heat cycle repressers as these can cause dangerous side affects) X-ray sterilization or proper containment are the safest because there aren't the risks of surgery and no side effects (EXCEPT in female cats there is a high risk for ovarian cancer if they don't mate, you can get an sterilized tom to 'mate' with her to keep her from getting cancer)
User avatar
Alexander
Adult Rabbit
Posts: 3898
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:37 pm
Location: Srsly.

Re: Debate/Discussion Topic

Post by Alexander »

The biggest problem I've seen about not neutering a male dog is that they'll want a mate at least every (6 months was it?), and that they can be very emotional about it and can lash out in anger/frustration. Usually it's meant to keep a more mature/laid back kind of family pet, rather than one that jumps around and jumps after you (Yeah, I know a dog that's like that. Lol).
I've heard nothing about neutering cats, though, so I don't have anything to say about that. All I've heard, though, is that they get really fat and lazy.
Image
Got #1 high score for goats! Woohoo!
Alias
Baby Mouse
Posts: 459
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:52 am
Location: Behind you

Re: Debate/Discussion Topic

Post by Alias »

I guess neutering a domestic animal prevents more homeless, unwanted offspring. Other than that, it's an animal's instinct to want to have offspring, and not being able to mate would go against that... That's all I know =\
Image Image Image

"Parents spend the first part of our lives teaching us to walk and talk, and the rest of it telling us to sit down and shut up."
Game Name: Guardian
User avatar
SilentEcho
Hawk Chick
Posts: 4081
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:48 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Debate/Discussion Topic

Post by SilentEcho »

It's not like neutering them is painful. And either way, less kittens/puppies means less strays, so I'm all for neutering/spaying.
Image
If you don't know who I am by now, I'm just some girl who changes obsessions all the time.
Current Obsessions: Pokemon, TWD, Glee and The legend of Korra

Image
User avatar
Kenya
Global Moderator
Posts: 2704
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:55 pm
Location: South Africa

Re: Debate/Discussion Topic

Post by Kenya »

Definitely NOT appropriate. Anymore posts related to that subject will be trashed, and warnings will be given out.
WEO Moderator since August 31st, 2010

If you need assistance please PM me.
User avatar
Quagga
Baby Gecko
Posts: 1136
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:01 am

Re: Debate/Discussion Topic

Post by Quagga »

It's entirely natural. But, whatever.
Artwork: Tumblr
animalguy888
Adult Gecko
Posts: 1546
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:42 am
Location: In the sky hunting for a hybrid between superman and bigfoot in an alternate universe
Contact:

Re: Debate/Discussion Topic

Post by animalguy888 »

opionions on panspermia?
Cosmic Ancestry is a new theory pertaining to evolution and the origin of life on Earth. It holds that life on Earth was seeded from space, and that life's evolution to higher forms depends on genetic programs that come from space. (It accepts the Darwinian account of evolution that does not require new genetic programs.) It is a wholly scientific, testable theory for which evidence is accumulating.

The first point, which deals with the origin of life on Earth, is known as panspermia — literally, "seeds everywhere." Its earliest recorded advocate was the Greek philosopher Anaxagoras, who influenced Socrates. However, Aristotle's theory of spontaneous generation came to be preferred by science for more than two thousand years. Then on April 9, 1864, French chemist Louis Pasteur reported his experiment disproving spontaneous generation as it was then held to occur. In the 1870s, British physicist Lord Kelvin and German physicist Hermann von Helmholtz reinforced Pasteur and argued that life could come from space. And in the first decade of the 1900s, Swedish chemist and Nobel laureate Svante Arrhenius theorized that bacterial spores, propelled through space by light pressure, were the seeds of life on Earth.

But in the 1920s, Russian biochemist Alexander Oparin and English geneticist J.B.S. Haldane, writing independently, revived the doctrine of spontaneous generation in a more sophisticated form. In the new version, the spontaneous generation of life no longer happens on Earth, takes too long to observe in a laboratory, and has left no clues about its occurrence. Supporting this theory, in 1953, American chemists Stanley Miller and Harold Urey showed that some amino acids can be chemically produced from amonia and methane. That experiment is now famous, and the Oparin - Haldane paradigm still prevails today.

Starting in the 1970s, British astronomers Fred Hoyle and Chandra Wickramasinghe rekindled interest in panspermia. By careful spectroscopic observation and analysis of light from distant stars they found new evidence, traces of life, in the intervening dust. They also proposed that comets, which are largely made of water-ice, carry bacterial life across galaxies and protect it from radiation damage along the way. One aspect of this research program, that interstellar dust and comets contain organic compounds, has been pursued by others as well. It is now widely accepted that space contains the "ingredients" of life. This development could be the first hint of a huge paradigm shift. But mainstream science has not accepted the hard core of modern panspermia, that whole cells seeded life on Earth.

Hoyle and Wickramasinghe also broadened or generalized panspermia to include a new understanding of evolution. While accepting the fact that life on Earth evolved over the course of about four billion years, they say that the genetic programs for higher evolution cannot be explained by random mutation and recombination among genes for single-celled organisms, even in that long a time: the programs must come from somewhere beyond Earth. In a nutshell, their theory holds that all of life comes from space. It incorporates the original panspermia much as General Relativity incorporates Special Relativity. Their expanded theory can well be termed "strong" panspermia.

Meanwhile on a different track, in the early 1970s, British chemist and inventor James Lovelock proposed the theory that life controls Earth's environment to make it suitable for life. The theory, which William Golding suggested he call Gaia, has gained a small but growing, sometimes cultish following. However, seen from a Darwinian perspective, the Gaia theory looks teleological. It is hard to imagine how purposeful Gaian processes that take millions of years could be discovered by trial and error. In response to such criticism, Lovelock has retreated slightly from some of his earlier bold claims for Gaia. Here we endorse Lovelock's theory at its original strength. We propose that Gaian processes are not blindly found and peculiar to Earth, but are pre-existent and universal — life from space brings Gaian processes with it. We suggest that Gaian processes are necessary for higher forms of life to emerge and succeed on any planet.

We are calling the union of Lovelock's Gaia with Hoyle and Wickramasinghe's expanded theory of panspermia Cosmic Ancestry. This account of evolution and the origin of life on Earth is profoundly different from the prevailing scientific paradigm. The new theory challenges not merely the answers but the questions that are popular today. Cosmic Ancestry implies, we find, that life can only descend from ancestors at least as highly evolved as itself. And it means, we believe, that there can be no origin of life from nonbiological matter in the past. Without supernatural intervention, therefore, we conclude that life must have always existed. Although these conclusions cut across the boundaries between science, philosophy, and religion, we believe they are grounded in good evidence. In fact, new data that support many aspects of Cosmic Ancestry are coming in rapidly. In the following pages we will explain how these and other recent developments support Cosmic Ancestry:


19 May 1995: two scientists at Cal Poly showed that bacteria can survive without any metabolism for at least 25 million years; probably they are immortal.
24 November 1995: The New York Times described bacteria that can survive radiation much stronger than any that Earth has ever experienced.
7 August 1996: NASA announced fossilized evidence of ancient life in meteorite ALH 84001 from Mars.
27 October 1996: geneticists showed evidence that many genes are much older than the fossil record would indicate. Subsequent studies have strengthened this finding.
29 July 1997: a NASA scientist announced evidence of fossilized microscopic life forms in a meteorite not from any known planet.
Spring, 1998: a microfossil that was found in a meteorite and photographed in 1966, was recognized by a Russian microbiologist as a magnetotactic bacterium.
Fall, 1998: NASA's public position on life-from-space shifted dramatically.
4 January 1999: NASA officially recognized the possibility that life on Earth comes from space.
19 March 1999: NASA scientists announced that two more meteorites hold even stronger fossilized evidence for past life on Mars.
26 April 2000: the German team operating the mass spectrometer on NASA's Stardust mission announced the detection of very large organic molecules in space. Nonbiological sources for organic molecules so large are not known.
19 October 2000, a team of biologists and a geologist announced the revival of bacteria that are 250 million years old, strengthening that case that bacterial spores can be immortal.
13 December 2000: a NASA team demonstrated that the magnetosomes in Mars meteorite ALH 84001 are biological.
June 2002: Geneticists reported evidence that the evolutionary step from chimps to humans was assisted by viruses.
2 August 2004: Very convincing photos of fossilized cyanobacteria in a meteorite were reported by a NASA scientist.
25 January 2005: J. Craig Venter endorses panspermia.
10 May 2007: E. O. Wilson endorses panspermia.
18 April 2008: Richard Dawkins endorses panspermia.
7 April 2009: Stephen Hawking endorses panspermia.
2 May 2009: Freeman Dyson speaks favorably about panspermia.
The case for Cosmic Ancestry is not yet proven, of course. At this point the best reason to notice it is that the mainstream darwinian paradigm does not satisfactorily account for sustained evolutionary progress and the origin of life on Earth. We will mention some of the flaws in the darwinian account, but our primary purpose is to present Cosmic Ancestry as a viable scientific account of evolutionary progress and the origin of life on Earth.

Panspermia — the theory that microbes transmit life to habitable bodies in space; or the process of such transmission
.
Image
Image
Image

"There is beauty in every Creature, Stone, and Plant. To find it you Just have to look for It."


Click here if you dare!...

Image
Post Reply